10 Questions You Should to Know about Universal Frequency Counter

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Citizen

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Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« on: June 07, , 05:12:27 pm » I am saking myself, why should you buy FC   if every dig. scope nowdays have one build in.
 Yes. Thats a question.

nctnico

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #1 on: June 07, , 05:22:34 pm » Frequency counters are often more accurate. I have an old HPA and I have used it about 10 times over the past 10 years but when I use it, it serves its purpose well. There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope. The following users thanked this post: croma641

Lightages

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #2 on: June 07, , 05:22:55 pm » The need for a frequency counter depends on the individual's interest or need. If you need to measure frequencies less than 20-40MHz, there are many multimeters that have this capacity to measure within their display limits and accuracy.

If you need to measure higher frequencies or have higher accuracy or more resolution, then yes there is a need for a dedicated meter.

In other words, if you don't know if you need a dedicated frequency counter, then you do not need one.

ve7xen

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #3 on: June 07, , 05:33:27 pm » A 'universal' counter can also measure many other timing parameters of a signal that may be awkward or inaccurate to measure on a scope. For example A->B interval, A/B frequency ratio. It will also have adjustable trigger thresholds and usually the option of using an external gate and time reference. And of course much higher resolution.

And it doesn't require any 'scope channel(s). 73 de VE7XEN
He/Him

hgg

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #4 on: June 07, , 05:36:32 pm » Hi, by the way, do you know if you can use a frequency counter like the one below (RF)
http://www.409shop.com/409shop_product.php?id=  and convert it somehow
so that you can measure the frequency of signals with higher voltages peak to peak?
e.g. 10V peak to peak.

dfmischler

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #5 on: June 07, , 06:07:27 pm »

Frequency counters are often more accurate. I have an old HPA and I have used it about 10 times over the past 10 years but when I use it, it serves its purpose well.

I have an HP B and it's just about the same deal for me.  At one time I worked for a company that did a bunch of microwave stuff and they had guys with some serious counters and a cesium frequency standard to calibrate them to.  They needed their counters every day.

jpb

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #6 on: June 07, , 06:10:05 pm » I've been wondering about this myself. Frequency counters, compared to other equipment, are quite cheap and the ones provided with scopes are limited.

For example, the one on my scope is 6 digits (many are just 5) and is limited by the bandwidth of the scope (350MHz). It is also confined to the trigger channel, though I know other scopes allow you to choose. It is also tied to the accuracy of the scope, there is no external 10MHz input. For a typical scope this may be only a few 10s of ppm. I tested mine with a GPS 1pps signal and it measured it as 999.997 mHz so was within 3 ppm which I was pleased about (my scope timebase should be within 10ppm).

I wouldn't buy an 7 or 8 digit counter as that wouldn't be sufficient a step up, but a 9 or 10 digit counter allows you to check frequencies very accurately if you can make use of an external GPS or Rubidium source. (A counter that doesn't allow the use of an external frequency standard might only be accurate to 1ppm so is the same order as the scope's counter.)

I don't really need such accuracy as I'm not a radio enthusiast, but I'd like to have it. And there are lots of experiments I might do which would be helped by a counter. It also provides a means of checking the timing aspects of other equipment (such as a scope).

G0HZU

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #7 on: June 07, , 09:05:08 pm » For servicing of ham/CB radio gear a decent counter is an essential piece of gear to have on the bench because this type of equipment tends to use numerous crystal oscillators that each need to be adjusted for accuracy using a counter that should typically offer 0.5ppm accuracy.

When I was a student I used to use an old Marconi TF counter for stuff like this. Its very basic internal reference is typically within 2Hz of 10MHz after a 30 minute warmup which isn't bad.

However, if you don't need to service radio gear then I think a decent counter probably isn't needed by many people.

I also have a couple of reciprocal counter/timers from Philips and Anritsu and these are very useful for measuring lower frequencies with very high accuracy and very fast update rate and also they can time events very accurately. The old TF can't really do this.

Note that you can buy a decent counter on ebay for very little money if you are patient. I would avoid the cheapo chinese counters on ebay and instead look for the usual vintage makes such as Racal or Philips and always choose one with an external 10MHz option. « Last Edit: June 08, , 11:15:42 am by G0HZU »

vk6zgo

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #8 on: June 08, , 05:51:05 am » I have  a cheapo Chinese counter---I couldn't pass it up for $A99 at the local Hamfest!

Apart from being a bit flimsy,it is good enough for most work I will do,& probably better than some of the very early RACALs & such!
It certainly counts a lot higher in frequency.

My Tek has a vertical amp output on the back,so if I stick the FC on that output,I can accurately determine the frequency of whatever signal I am probing.

This is useful when checking through Ham Transcievers of which many have multiple oscillator circuits.
Obviously,I could do the same with a DSO with a built in frequency display,but from what I have seen,they have quite limited resolution.

Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #9 on: June 08, , 06:19:41 am »

In other words, if you don't know if you need a dedicated frequency counter, then you do not need one.

I concur. Although when you do need a good one, there is no substitute.
Some counters have meany features, like actual counting (input pulses) and other stuff which can be handy. The following users thanked this post: croma641

G0HZU

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #10 on: June 08, , 10:59:04 am » I still think there are better bargains for the patient purchaser if you buy a used counter.

eg for £65 I bought a 3GHz Anritsu MFA counter on ebay. It came with all the top options including the option 3 oven that has 0.005ppm stability over temperature and 0.ppm per day. Also GPIB to allow logging of measurements remotely.

It's probably 17 years old but it was one of the finest (and fastest) counters on the planet in its day. eg it can display 10MHz to 0.1Hz with several updates a second or it can display 11 digits on the slowest gate time. No $99 chinese counter on ebay can compete with that

It's outclassed by the best of today's counters from Agilent or Tek etc but you can pick them up very cheaply if you are patient because Anritsu gear tends to get overlooked in favour of HP/Agilent yet the build quality of the japanese counter is arguably better.

« Last Edit: June 08, , 11:11:17 am by G0HZU »

vk6zgo

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #11 on: June 09, , 04:26:19 am »

I still think there are better bargains for the patient purchaser if you buy a used counter.

eg for £65 I bought a 3GHz Anritsu MFA counter on ebay. It came with all the top options including the option 3 oven that has 0.005ppm stability over temperature and 0.ppm per day. Also GPIB to allow logging of measurements remotely.

It's probably 17 years old but it was one of the finest (and fastest) counters on the planet in its day. eg it can display 10MHz to 0.1Hz with several updates a second or it can display 11 digits on the slowest gate time. No $99 chinese counter on ebay can compete with that

It's outclassed by the best of today's counters from Agilent or Tek etc but you can pick them up very cheaply if you are patient because Anritsu gear tends to get overlooked in favour of HP/Agilent yet the build quality of the japanese counter is arguably better.

Agreed,but my $99 counter was handed to me at a Hamfest brand new----no ebay,or postage cost involved.
As it is,I now have a counter,whereas I would still be looking for one,if I went the secondhand route.
I am a great booster of Anritsu,though,having used their Spectrum Analysers,which are extremely well made.

manticore00

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #12 on: June 09, , 05:28:32 am » One exception to cheap(both in price and quality) Chinese imports is probably the VC. I wish it had an external timebase input but otherwise, based off of my own experience, and the reviews I read before I bought one, I'm quite impressed given its price point. Aut viam inveniam aut faciam The following users thanked this post: I wanted a rude username

alex77

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #13 on: June 09, , 01:33:52 pm »

One exception to cheap(both in price and quality) Chinese imports is probably the VC. I wish it had an external timebase input but otherwise, based off of my own experience, and the reviews I read before I bought one, I'm quite impressed given its price point.

I have bought one a few months ago mainly for measuring high frequencies that my 100mhz siglent can´t reach. I agree with you, I think that its a great tool for the price.

bingo600

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #14 on: June 10, , 08:52:06 am » I got a cheap China one with a lousy Ref-Xtal , but i was lucky as it used a 13Mhz Reference.
And there is a cheap 26Mhz docxo on the *Bay
Get the docxo , and an AC74. And you have a superstable 13Mhz ref.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/zhaoxin-hc-fl-%28atten-fc%29-frequency-counter-un-stable-count/msg/?topicseen#msg

/Bingo

Tepe

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #15 on: June 10, , 02:10:57 pm »

One exception to cheap(both in price and quality) Chinese imports is probably the VC. I wish it had an external timebase input but otherwise, based off of my own experience, and the reviews I read before I bought one, I'm quite impressed given its price point.

Is it possible to add such an input so you could use an external 10 MHz signal?

Telequipment

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #16 on: June 10, , 07:11:36 pm »  I'm fortunate enough to have Two one is  frequency counter, from 5 Hz to 600 Mhz, the other is a universal Counter timer that goes from 0.1 hz to 10 Mhz, both used for my Amateur Radio the !0 Mhz one, is mainly used  with my HF transceiver which doesn't have digital readout .

bingo600

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #17 on: June 10, , 07:33:20 pm » I have (by accident) actually used one of my counters to debug some microcontroller programs.
I had a 10ms timer irq that i was watching (toggling a pin) , but noticed that once in a while the frequency went off ....

I later found out i (once in a while) had a stack/heap collision , and the "counter told me about it" :-)

I have lots of them (but i'm addicted ...  time-nut)

The China Thingy with the 26Mhz OCXO

These are driven by 10Mhz from my Tbolt GPSDO.

PM
PM - TCXO
HPa
RacalDana

And the Ref' one
PMB

I actually use the HP384a a lot , for plain measurements.
It's so easy to set up , and is quite accurate. (with Ext 10Mhz)


/Bingo « Last Edit: June 10, , 07:39:04 pm by bingo600 »

PA4TIM

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #18 on: June 10, , 08:24:27 pm » I have several including a few frequency  references. My first one was a kit with a pic that went up to 55 MHz. the rest varies from two 60 MHz nixie counters upto a 18 GHz counter. I builded a 1GHz counter last year for use in a signal generator but that became to big and 1 GHz was not enogh so now I made a very simple but very acurate one. Nothing more as a MB506 prescaler, a fet, and a to it get divided by 512. Then a with watch Xtal and a to get 1 Hz as gate. An Arduino programmed ATmega328 does the rest. No calibration needed. It was only 3 Hz  high at 512MHz (so in real 3 Hz devided by 512) Did not bother to get is better. But this only reads frequency. Commercial versions can do a lot more. Attenuation, trigger, gatingtime, periode, frequency, delta two channels and some a lot more.

But the answer to the question:
No, you do not need a counter because if you did, you would have know.  www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
www.schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl  repair of test and calibration equipment
https://www.youtube.com/user/pa4tim my youtube channel

bingo600

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #19 on: June 10, , 09:04:16 pm »

Then a with watch Xtal and a to get 1 Hz as gate. An Arduino programmed ATmega328 does the rest. No calibration needed. It was only 3 Hz  high at 512MHz (so in real 3 Hz devided by 512)
But the answer to the question:
No, you do not need a counter because if you did, you would have know. 

That's quite impressive as i don't expect you to have the watch Xtal@Bodytemperature 

Ohh and i do agree , if you really need a counter ... You know ...

/Bingo

PA4TIM

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #20 on: June 10, , 09:28:56 pm » The 32kHz is divided back to 1 Hz so the Xtal ppm/C does not matter much  I played around with N0P caps and a very small ceramic trimmer to get it adjusted at . ms after the devider (a whole turn is about 500ns adjustment) but later I tested the effect and it does not matter. The fault is below 1 Hz and my resolution stops there. The final version reads only with 1 kHz resolution what more then enough is for my purpose (sweep/signal generator upto 2 Ghz) http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=
The schamatics are not yet upto date. I will do that when he is ready. The arduino software is there too, but there is a small bug in it. Not a big thing, i forgot to uncomment a line that closes the string with a zero. I will change that toO.

The meter also measures power

www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
www.schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl  repair of test and calibration equipment
https://www.youtube.com/user/pa4tim my youtube channel

alank2

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #21 on: June 10, , 11:39:21 pm » This really is a great ocxo:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pletronics-26MHz-OCXO-Miniature-Oscillator-NEW-/?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6f73b1ae

I use it in my AVR based reciprocal frequency counter.  It is still on a breadboard missing a decent input stage, but works great...

Marc M.

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #22 on: June 27, , 08:37:36 pm »

Is it possible to add such an input so you could use an external 10 MHz signal?

If the counter uses a 10MHz internal clock then yes you can.  You'll need to add some buffering/impedance matching and there may be some phase issues but for most users they won't matter.  I run my 30+ year old B&K counter off a rubidium standard piped into its xtal oscillator.  For most stuff I don't need more than 1Hz resolution and if I slip and contact high voltage, it's less than $1.00 US to repair the front end.  Prior to modification it was all over the place, varying in the 10's of Hz and would never stabilize.  I have a HPa (also running off the rubidium standard) I use for critical or higher frequency measurements ( is about 60MHz vs a is 1.3GHz).

Marc - Don't replace the cap, just empty the filter!

alank2

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #23 on: June 28, , 12:47:53 am » I use mine all the time for calibrating things.  It uses one of the Pletronics 26MHz OCXO's from eBay (seen in the lower right).  It is based on an ATMEGA328.  It uses a MC74ACN to handle frequencies from 0-100MHz and a MAX for  the LED display.  The picture shows an 80 MHz oscillator.  It has min/max/avg and is a reciprocal style counter.

jpb

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Re: Frequency counter. Do you really need one?

« Reply #24 on: June 28, , 09:48:34 am » I've just bought an ex-demo TTi TF930. It is a reciprocal counter with 10 digits and, importantly for me, goes down to 0.01Hz - most counters I've seen on e-bay start at around 10Hz. It also has no dead zone in counting (i.e. the counters aren't stopped when measurements are taken). It also has remote control via USB.

The reason I wanted the lower frequency was to allow me to connect a GPS 1pps whilst at the same time connecting an OCXO to the external reference. I can then adjust the external reference to get exactly 1Hz to 10 figures. A lazy approach to a GPS disciplined oscillator.

So far I'm happy with it. With the internal oscillator it reads 1.000 000 020Hz and it is very steady except when I regularly lose the satellites (I've not yet set up my outdoor antenna).

12 digits would be nice but the TF930 seems a good compromise between cheap 8 digit counters (which I felt wouldn't add much to the 6 digit one on my scope) and nice Agilent ones which even on their e-bay store are over £ (the TF930 as ex-demo cost me just under £200 ex VAT). I'd been looking on e-bay for a while and most 9 or more digit counters were quite old, didn't go down below about 10Hz or above a couple of hundred MHz and often were in the region of £140 to £200 anyway. And buying directly from TTi I get a years warranty and I like to support local (to me) companies though my spending budget will not make much difference to their turn-over!

The only negative (so far) is that the display is not backlit so needs good light, but this is partly to keep the power requirement down allowing the counter to be run from its internal rechargeable batteries or from the USB connector.

In digital electronics, counters are used to count the no.of pulses or events that have occurred. Counters store the data and made up of a group of flip-flops with an applied clock signal. Counters are capable of measuring frequency and time along with the counting process. These can increment memory addresses according to the application. Counters are divided into two types they are synchronous counters and asynchronous counters. The ‘mod’ of the counter indicates the no.of states should be applied before counting the pulses. These are used in various digital applications such as analog to digital converters, digital clocks, frequency dividers, timer circuits, and many more. This article is all about the frequency counter.

What is the Frequency Counter?

Definition: The test instruments which are associated with a wide range of radio frequencies that the frequency and time of digital signals are called frequency counters. These are capable of measuring the frequency and time of repeated digital signals accurately. These are also known as frequency meters, used to measure the frequency and time of square wave and input pulses. These are used various applications with RF range. These counters use Prescaler to reduce the frequency and operates the digital circuit. The frequency of the digital or analog signals is displayed on its display in HZ.

When the no.of pulses or events occurred in a specific period of time, the counter counts the pulses and transfers it to the frequency counter to display the frequency range of pulses and counter is set to zero. It is very easy to use and measure the frequency, and displays in digital form. These are available at affordable rates with more accuracy.

Block Diagram

The frequency counter block diagram contains input signal, input conditioning, and threshold, AND gate, counter or latch, accurate timebase or clock, decade dividers, flip-flop, and display.

Input

When the input signal with high input impedance and low output impedance is applied to this counter, then it will be fed to the amplifier to convert the signal into a square wave or rectangular wave for processing within the digital circuit. The input signal is buffered and amplified by using the input conditions and thresholds. In this stage, Schmitt trigger is used to control the counting additional pulses occurred due to noise at the edges. To reduce the counting additional pulses, the trigger level and sensitivity of the counter can be controlled.

Clock (Accurate Time-base)

Clock or accurate time-base is necessary to produce various timing signals at precise time intervals. It uses a crystal oscillator with high quality for controlled and accurate timing signals. The clock is applied to decade dividers.

Decade Dividers and Flip-Flop

Pulses generated from the incoming signal and clock signal are fed to the decade dividers to divide the clock signal and the output is given to the flip-flop to produce enabling pulse for the main AND gate.

Gate

The accurate enabling pulse from the flip-flop and the train of pulses from the input signal is applied to the gate ( AND gate ) to produce a series of pulses at a precise time interval. If the input signal/incoming signal is at 1 MHZ and for the 1-second gate should be opened, then 1 million pulses are produced as a resultant output signal.

Counter or Latch

The output of the gate is fed to the counter to count the no.of pulses that occurred from the input signal. The latch is used to hold the output signal while displaying the figures, meanwhile, the counter counts the pulses. It will have 10 stages to count and hold the pulses.

Display

The output of the counter and the latch are given to the display to provide the output in a readable format. The frequency of the output signal is displayed. The most commonly used displays are LCD or LED. Since there will be one digit for each decade counter and the related information is displayed on the display.

Frequency Counter Circuit Diagram

The circuit diagram of this can be done using two timers, counters, microcontrollers, potential resistors, square wave generator, and LCD display. The basic circuit diagram is shown below.

The frequency counter uses IC 555 timer to provide clock signals at a precise time interval of one second. Arduino UNO is used as a square wave generator. An IC 555 timer and square wave generator can be configured as an astable multivibrator. The 16×2 LCD display is used to display the frequency of the output signal in Hertz.

The circuit of this can be done by using IC 555 timer and timer/counter of microcontrollers. To generate the oscillating signals with a duty cycle (99%) with the highest time period of the output signal, the IC 555 timer is used. The threshold and discharge resistors can be adjusted to get a desired value of the duty cycle. The formula for the duty cycle is D= (R1+R2)/(R1+2R2).

The timer/counter of microcontrollers is used to generate the frequency of the pulse in Hertz. Since has two timers acts as timer 0 and timer 1 and operated in mode 0 and mode 1. Timer 0 is used to produce a time delay. The pulses out from the square wave generator are counted by using timer 1.

The circuit design of the frequency counter using IC 555 timer is shown below.

Frequency Counter Circuit Operating Principle

The pulses generated from the square wave generator are fed to the counter/timer of . It is operated in two modes to generate time delay and count the pulses. The counter/timer of counts the no.of pulses from the input signal at a time interval. The output from the counter is given to the 16×2 LCD display to display the frequency of the signal (no.of cycles/second) in Hz at a particular time interval. This is the operating principle of the frequency counter.

Frequency Counter Working

The working of the frequency counter can be explained from the above circuit diagram. The pulse generated from the square wave generator (Arduino UNO) is given to the pin 3.5 (port 3) of microcontrollers. Pin 3.5 of acts as timer 1 and configured as a counter. TCON TR1 bit can be set to HIGH and LOW to count the pulses. The final count is stored in TH1 and TL1 registers (timer 1). The frequency of the pulse can be calculated by using the formula,

The company is the world’s best Universal Frequency Counter supplier. We are your one-stop shop for all needs. Our staff are highly-specialized and will help you find the product you need.

F = ( TH1 X 256 ) + TL1

To convert the values of the pulse in hertz, the resultant value is multiplied by 10 i.e., frequency in cycles per second. After some calculations inside the frequency counter, the frequency of the pulse is displayed on 16×2 LCD.

Types of Frequency Counter

The frequency of the pulse can be measured by using two types of frequency counters. They are,

• Direct counting frequency counter
• Reciprocal frequency counter.

Direct Counting Frequency Counter

This is one of the simplest methods of measuring the frequency of an input pulse. After counting the no.of cycles of the input pulse per second, the frequency can be calculated by using a simple counter circuit. This conventional method is limited to measure low-frequency resolution. To get the highest resolution, the gate time can be expanded. For example, to measure resolution at 1MHZ, then seconds time period is needed to measure at one time.

Reciprocal Frequency Counter

This method is used to overcome the disadvantages of the direct counting method. It measures the time period of input pulse instead of calculating no.of cycles per second. The frequency of the pulse can be calculated by using F = 1/T. The final frequency resolution depends on temporal resolution and independent of the input frequency. It can measure the low frequency at the highest resolution very quickly and reduces the noise by adjusting the trigger level. It measures the time period of input pulse ( contains several cycles ) and maintains sufficient time resolution. This can be carried out at a low cost.

The other types of frequency counters are

• The bench frequency counter is used for electronics test equipment
• PXI frequency counter displays frequency in a PXI format and used for test and control systems.
• Handheld frequency counter
• Frequency counter using a digital multimeter
• Panel meter

Advantages

The advantages of frequency counter are

• It measures the frequency of the pulse generated from the square wave generator at a precise time interval.
• These are widely used to measure frequency within the RF range
• These counters provide accurate frequency values very quickly and easily.
• It is cost-effective depending on the application.
• Ensures that all the frequencies are transmitted within the specified bands.

Applications

The applications of frequency counter are

• Used to determine the frequency of the pulse obtained from the square wave generator.
• Used to measure the frequency of the pulse very accurately
• Measures the frequency of the incoming signal at the transmitter and receiver on a line
• Used in data transmissions because of the clock pulse.
• Frequency of an oscillator can be measured
• Used in RF Range
• Detects the frequency of a high power data transmissions

FAQs

1). What is the unit of frequency?

Frequency of the signal is measured in Hertz (HZ)

2). What is the use of a frequency counter?

These are used to measure the accurate frequency of a signal generated from a square wave generator or an oscillator.

3). What type of counters are used to measure high frequencies?

Synchronous and asynchronous counters are used to measure high frequencies.

4). What do you mean by the mod counter?

Mod counter or modulus counter is defined as the no.of states that counter counts the pulse in sequence by applying a clock signal.

5). What are the two methods of frequency counter?

The methods are Direct counting and Reciprocal

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